This week, host Rev. Paul Brandeis Raushenbush reflects on the courage of Episcopal Bishop Rt. Rev. Mariann Budde, who spoke faithfully on behalf of the victims of the incoming administration’s policies at the inagural prayer service, attended by the president and vice president. Then Paul is joined by Skye Perryman, President and CEO of Democracy Forward, to discuss the ongoing challenges to American democracy, particularly the weaponization of government, the politicization of civil servants, and the important intersection of faith and politics. Together, they examine how Trump’s executive actions, which often seem performative, are part of a broader strategy to reshape government and remove protections for vulnerable communities.
As the CEO of Democracy Forward, Skye discusses her organization’s legal and advocacy work and mission to hold powerful entities accountable, protect democracy, and serve the public good. Together, Interfaith Alliance and Democracy Forward are on the frontlines, combatting extremism and Christian nationalism.
“I do think there’s no way out of this but through it. And so my advice is the community and connection. We’re going to get through it together. When you see someone seeking to tear you apart, to try to sow division, to try to make you feel like you’re the only one or that your belief in justice and your belief in a better tomorrow is somehow naive or somehow radical or somehow audacious, you can ignore that. And I think that we can get through it together and to remember our history and how many people have done hard work against great odds at great risks to themselves in order to create a future that we have inherited, and that it’s really our job, now, to be good stewards of that.”
Skye L. Perryman is a board member of Interfaith Alliance and the President and CEO of Democracy Forward, a nonpartisan, national legal organization that promotes democracy and progress through litigation, regulatory engagement, policy education, and research. She has built a visionary team of legal, policy, and communications experts to confront anti-democratic extremism head-on while also using the law to advance progress and a bold vision for the future. Known for her strategic insight and impact-oriented leadership, Skye has a track record of winning tough legal and policy battles, uniting diverse coalitions, and elevating voices that represent the fabric of our country to deliver results that improve the lives of millions.
—INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT—
PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:
Skye Perryman is president and CEO of Democracy Forward, a nonprofit that takes on government corruption and fights for policies that benefit everyday people. They focus on using the law to challenge harmful actions by powerful interests and ensure accountability in government. She is at the center of many of the democracy preservation efforts happening right now. And she is also, I should say, and gratefully say, a valued member of the Interfaith Alliance Board.
Skye, the world is in a moment, isn’t it? And I am just so glad to welcome you back to the State of Belief.
SKYE PERRYMAN, GUEST:
This is a great place to be this week, Paul. So, thank you so much for the generous invitation to join you.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
So I understated it in your intro. I mean, it is remarkable. You and I have known each other a long time, and you’ve always been, just, impressive. And all of your work, I want us to talk about that a little bit. It feels like it is built to this moment, and you have become one of the most grounding, clear, and strategic voices in how to respond in this moment to the incoming Trump administration.
And I just want to start with gratitude, because that doesn’t happen without incredible work and an outlay of passion and love for this nation, and also a lot of really intelligent considerations. So first, let me just say “thank you” for this work.
And listeners, again, I undersold this. Just go look for Skye Perryman. I mean, she’s been on the front cover of New York Magazine. You know, I think without actually, in some ways, meaning to, you’ve become one of the most prominent faces that people are looking to in this moment. So I want to just check in, first of all, and see how are you feeling? How are you doing in this moment? We’re recording this in the first week of the Trump administration. How are you doing?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Well, it is quite a time, isn’t it? I mean, I’m interested in how you’ve been taking the week, but you and I have talked about this and so many of the communities that we have the honor of working in across the country. Some of this extremism is not new, but seeing it on a federal level, seeing it with the power of the executive branch behind it, and then seeing it with the purported power of the executive branch – I think this president thinks he has more power than the Constitution actually affords him, but all of that is pretty heavy, right?
And in addition to my day job – my real job is I’m a mom. And I know you’re also a parent and a dad. And that weighs on us when we’re raising kids. And I think for so many of the staff members at Democracy Forward and the communities that we work with and people that are kind of rising up and moving forward in this moment, I think it’s a lot about our future and the future for our kids, for young people, for people that we love.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about, just take us to the day of the inauguration. I’m sorry. I don’t mean to trigger you. And I do want to get very much into, specifically, Democracy Forward and what you all are doing. But I I think sometimes, it’s just really important to recognize that people like you who are leading big organizations and, really, strategizing in this moment. It’s also like you’re watching things unfold. Did it unfold like you expected it to, or were there surprises and just like what were the emotions of that moment?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Well, I mean, first of all, I had a deep gratitude in that moment in watching a peaceful transition of power, in watching people sit and watch the inauguration of a president that has vilified them, that has created lies about them, in many instances. And nevertheless, in this country and in the values that we have in this country, that was a peaceful transition of power. And that’s not what we saw in 2020. President Trump did not attend the inauguration. And then, of course, January 6 happened just before that. So some of that moment really, in watching it, was, being able to really see that there are people that have been upholding the rule of law and that are committed to ensuring the best of our values.
And then of course, what is going to happen next? Because you could see and hear in the speeches that were given, and then in the rallies afterwards, just a range of plans that they’re accelerating to really harm people and communities across the nation. And of course, the president can’t do that all the time. You can’t, with a stroke of the pen, rip the Constitution up. And I said this the other day, but it doesn’t matter if you’re in the Capitol One Arena, the Capitol Rotunda, or the top of Trump Tower, there are guardrails in this society for people and communities. And of course, as a lawyer and as a person running a legal organization that’s really dedicated to ensuring that people’s rights are protected, that’s where our brains immediately go, is, okay, this is what it’s going to be.
And there’s a lot of disagreement on policy that you get to have in a democracy, and elections do have policy consequences. But there are also things that no individual in this country gets to do to invalidate the existence of people, to target people, to undermine the core function of our government, which is to serve the people, not to serve private interest. And so I was kind of having that combination of thinking.
And then, of course, you and I have talked about this, but Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. has always been a real hero of mine as a young child. I think he was among the kind of historical figures that really, his story, his words really stuck with me as they do, I think, with most children. He was a gifted minister in that way, a Baptist minister, and I’m Baptist. And so, of course, all of this unfolding on a day that we celebrate the life and legacy and mourn the assassination of Dr. King, I think was also just another kind of element and depth of that day.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
It’s very poignant and very jarring. I like the way you’re framing this because it’s also, stiffen our spine.
And so maybe you can tell us a little bit about Democracy Forward, the genesis of the organization, your interactions with it. And I’ll preface it by saying and kind of setting you up a little bit, it’s not like you were starting from square one on the inauguration saying, well, what should we do? This is not the way that Skye Perryman and a bunch of others of us were thinking. But first of all, start with Democracy Forward: what’s the genesis of that organization, and where is it now?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Well, we were founded, really, for this moment. I mean, we were founded in the wake of the 2016 election, in the early days of the first Trump administration. You saw a range of shock and awe actions and everyone, I think, in the country that watched everything unfold or experienced everything unfold remembers the visions of lawyers, you know, running in airports, dropping their bags just like they were doctors at a medical emergency, dropping their bags to render legal assistance to people who were being blocked from seeing their families, being blocked from entering the country. That was the Muslim ban.
There were wonderful lawyers at the ACLU and other organizations and state attorneys general that challenged that first range of really problematic and extreme conduct. But what was happening under the radar that the news wasn’t reporting, that people were not paying attention to, was a range of very strategic actions across the federal government to undermine the ability of the government to work for people – whether that was setting up corrupt commissions, whether it was abruptly discontinuing funding for community programs across the country, but doing it in very individualized ways that made it seem like it wasn’t a pattern upon an initial look.
There were a range of these things happening, and there weren’t lawyers that were really at the ready to ensure that people’s rights were protected from those things, because so much of the attention and resources were having to go to these most extreme behaviors. And so Democracy Forward was founded to, in that moment, to bring great lawyers together and great communicators together to represent my favorite client, the client of people and democracy.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
I should say, by the way, you mentioned great lawyers. You had a pretty – not cushy because you were working hard, but it was at a very prestigious law firm, and you were on track.
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Yeah, I said this the other day to somebody, I had a great gig going and really thought that was going to be what I did with my life. And it was very fulfilling and rewarding. I had clients that had really complex problems that were in the business sectors. And then I also had wonderful clients that were my pro bono and public interest clients, and was always grateful to practice at law firms that really valued the role of pro bono legal work. And so I had a great situation, but when you start seeing…
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
…It wasn’t like you were stomping around saying, what can I do? You were just one example of many wonderful lawyers who left these major positions to go to Democracy Forward and found it, and did so much good work. Let’s just follow your trajectory for a second, because then you went to another really interesting position, and I want you to say it, because I’ll butcher it a little bit, but it was another kind of really interesting moment for another organization that needed strategy.
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Yeah, I’ve just had these series of pivots. So, Democracy Forward was founded out of that moment. By the way, we took on cases that nobody thought we would win – and we won a lot. We won a lot more than people thought, and, really, were able to defend the rule of law to protect people and communities. It was the greatest job being a litigator at Democracy Forward in those early days.
And I really would not have left that but for a call that I got from a client of mine that had been one of my public interest clients, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, which is the nation’s leading association and largest association of physicians dedicated to the health of women.
Now, this was in 2018, right? This was not in the post-Dobbs era, but it was at a time when many of us that had done reproductive rights and reproductive health care work or that had just done other work that affected health care and the provision of health care to women knew what was coming down, both because of the far right and Christian nationalist legal movements, but also because of what the former Trump administration was doing across the board.
And so, I went to ACOG. I became their general counsel and then led their communications and policy and a range of portfolios there. And we also were able – the COVID-19 pandemic ended up in setting at that time – and guess what? Women still need healthcare in the pandemic. Babies are still being delivered in the pandemic. People need reproductive healthcare of all kinds. And so was really able to work with a great team there that did a range of things, from enhancing reproductive health care access, actually, in the COVID-19 pandemic, to seeking to enhance access to Medicaid for postpartum women in that time.
And it was a real example, I think, of how crises can sometimes be a catalyst for great change. We were able to get some pretty innovative changes, and policies were implemented to try to meet that moment that ended up being a real model. And that was also a great job. And also kind of one of these jobs that had this great office overlooking the Potomac River, wonderful people. And there’s nothing more motivating, I think, than getting to work with folks that just care for people every day, and that the ACOG members are like that.
But then January 6th happened. And it was clear that the threats to our democracy, sort of at a federal level – the states were already clear, in many states, we have so many extreme threats, but at the federal level – that those were not going anywhere, that there was a movement that was really going to seek to wield power in any way it could. It would resort to violence, it would resort to frivolous legal claims, it would resort to anything. And so in the months following January 6th, I had an opportunity to come back to Democracy Forward as the president and CEO to really expand the organization’s work. And this was not an organization, at one point we thought it was an organization that might be for a moment, but it’s not. It’s an organization that’s for a generation.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
And one of the important things that you began to develop a year ago, maybe more, I don’t know, I wasn’t privy to everything, but was a thought about, well, either way, honestly, whether or not there was a Harris victory or a Trump victory, that there was going to be a need for Democracy Forward, there’s going to be a real need. Because as you said, Project 2025 is already alive and well in many states. It’s already been enacted in many states. There’s lots of work to do. And you developed, it was just such foresight, but this Democracy 2025 collaborative. I don’t know what to call it. Maybe it’s like a collective of organizations that have committed to being in the fight together. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Yes. Well, I’ll say we know that we’re in kind of a new era – not a new moment, not an inflection point. We’re in a middle of an era that is a new era of modern American life where there’s just so much at stake, and it requires new strategies. And one of those strategies – and this is why I’ve been so grateful for you, Paul, and Interfaith Alliance – is really making sure that people are working together and building collective power in a way that’s not a talking point. It’s not like a thing on the website. It’s actually what happens if you bring people together with the skills they bring, with the needs they have, and strategize together.
And so we did start about a year ago when Project 2025 was published, and we did a lot of work to publish our People’s Guide to Project 2025, and did a lot of work to ensure that people really understood what was at stake there. And then, of course, so many organizations, including Interfaith Alliance, did that: to say, how are we going to come together to confront what is a real threat and a real reality that’s already taking place? I mean, we work in the same communities you do. We just blocked in law in Arkansas that would criminalize librarians. That’s where we are in 2025 in America. We blocked it. So that was the origins of this.
And of course, now it’s really an ability for people and communities to come together to ensure that as legal challenges are needed, that there is a coordinated effort. And you’re already seeing that. We filed, along with others, this case is on Inauguration Day. You’re already seeing 22 states, cities, and a range of other organizations file on birthright citizenship. So you’re already seeing, we can talk about that, but really making sure that we’re all leveraging each other’s strengths and meeting each other’s needs.
And so that’s what Democracy 2025 is. And because of the need for it in this moment, we did launch a website and we’re very proud that the Interfaith Alliance is part of that, and all of the listeners and viewers can go to Democracy2025.org and see more about it. And then recently, of course, we’ve launched resources for people. And so there’s an executive order response center that anybody, any person, can go learn more about the executive orders that are being signed, and learn more about the responses to them.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
It’s so important. You know, it’s a strategy, like, shock and awe, it’s a strategy for people to feel overwhelmed. It’s like a terrible tsunami of action. And we’re like, well, okay, I guess we’ve got to take it, because there’s just so much coming at us.
But what you’re doing is actually saying, no, these are each a thing, these are each actions, and we can know about each of them. And no, you don’t have to respond to every single one of them as an individual, but there is a way to be aware. I think part of what you’re offering, and is that – just to be clear, the resource on the executive actions, is that on Democracy2025.org?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Yes, Democracy2025.org. Go, there’s right now on the homepage, you can link, it says response center. There’s also a little tab there that you can go to. And our team at Democracy Forward is resourcing it around the clock providing real time analysis.
And then and then, of course, groups that have expertise in certain areas are able to send their resources so that the public can access that. And it really is, because we don’t have to be on somebody else’s time frame or somebody else’s turf. This is the American people’s turf. This is our country. And we don’t have to be in this constant state of of shock and awe.
Now, it’s devastating and there are a lot of communities that don’t get the choice because there is an effort to target, to terrorize, and to intimidate. But for those of us who are able to be in these places where we have some tools we can use, we have the law, you have your platforms, we have the tools we can use. We need to utilize those, and help people move in a strategic way, and help the people that are really being harmed.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
And so that’s what it’s all about. And I also think it’s about educating the American public, because there’s so much coming at us. And I really do think all of a sudden people are like, wait, what is really happening? I think a lot of people who may have just pulled the lever for Trump because of whatever they thought, I don’t think that people are really aware of what’s going on. And each of the executive orders, if you look at their titles, you’re like, what does that mean? They’re meant to obscure what’s really going on there. And so I think what you’re offering is so important.
Listeners, I really urge you go there. It will make you feel stronger. It will make you feel more powerful to go to Democracy2025.org and look through and see what is important to you.
Skye, I am really interested if anything specific stood out to you and said like, okay – because all of it is important, but in some ways you do have to prioritize. I mean, you have a big team now at Democracy Forward. It’s very impressive. But you still need to figure out: what do we do first? What do we do?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Everybody does. And we’re, of course, working and it’s not just us. We’re working alongside so many other lawyers, organizations.
So let me say a few things. I mean, a lot of the executive orders, some of them are performative and some of them are very harmful. And then there are the things that are happening that are not in executive orders, that are happening when agencies of the federal government write memos to implement executive orders, which is what we saw yesterday. Yesterday you didn’t see a bunch of executive order signed, you saw memos. And there are some really problematic memos, for instance, in the immigration space that affect houses of worship, where the administration is changing a policy that protected sensitive spaces from ICE enforcement, where you could go and worship without having to worry about there being law enforcement activities occurring inside your house of worship or in other sensitive spaces.
There were a range of other types of actions taken yesterday, memos. You’ve seen reports today about DEI offices across the federal government and people being put on this arbitrary leave. Those types of things may not be in executive orders. They may be in the memos. And so we’re going to work on getting information about that out to people, as well.
But I think if you take a step back, there are some of the things that were as advertised and you’re already seeing really good legal challenges, things like birthright citizenship. This is not a debatable proposition in the country. It’s clear in the Constitution. The president doesn’t get to destroy the Constitution with a pen and an executive order. And so, really grateful to the state attorneys general, the ACLU, and so many other groups that are challenging that.
But then we see, if you take a step back, there was an attempt in these executive orders to really decimate and politicize the way our government functions for people. And so, you know this, but there are 2.2 million federal employees that live and work in every state and location across the country that do the work of the people every day. I mean, these are people that are deciding and helping figure out if medicine and food is safe. They’re protecting our national security, our domestic security. They’re delivering essential services all throughout the country.
And the president signed a range of executive orders that is seeking to provide him the power to appoint an unlimited number of political appointees, of ideologically aligned people, and to fire career civil servants who’ve worked in Republican, Democrat administrations, whose work is nonpartisan and is about the people. That’s a real problem. That is a real problem, and we think there’s a lot of legal problems with how they’re operating. And I will let you know that you’ll hear from us about that, and from others.
But that is the kind of thing that is also part of the shock and awe strategy. To do so many things at once, and to have some of them just be so outlandish, like birthright citizenship, right? I mean, like really seeking to take away a fundamental constitutional right for people, that these other things that also affect all of us as people in real everyday ways get sort of less attention.
So, part of our strategy is: let the truth speak. Let’s see what it all is. Let’s sort it. Make sure the people are on it. And that’s what we did with Project 2025. You could look at this 900 that was part of the Project 2025, it was supposed to be, actually, a thing to just be this wonky policy document. But when you look at it and you see what it is, It’s totally extreme. The vast majority of the American people rejected it. It’s why Trump, on the campaign trail, had to run away from it, disavow it. He’s now seeking to accelerate it. But there’s power in people knowing, as we saw, and I think we will see. So that’s a lot of the work that we’re doing. And those are some of the early things that are sticking out to me that he’s doing.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
Well, I think what you just talked about, the civil servants, that’s an example of almost the reason that Democracy Forward was created: there’s lots of big things that are going to happen, but these things are so important. It’s millions of lives, but also not just millions of lives. It’s the quality of government and how government does its work. And there has been an effort to demean and undermine the legitimacy of government and how government can provide services. That has been a long-standing, like, you know, oh, government is automatically bad. And so if you’re going to be undermining the ability of civil servants to do their work or politicizing that work… And the fact that you’re going to go in there, that you are paying attention to that, even as you’re looking at all these other things, it’s really important.
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Well, let me also just say for your listeners: go to Democracy2025.org for sure. And if you want to, you can check out Democracy Forward. We have a website. But if you go to the website civilservicestrong.org, You will see a website that we launched after the president-elect started making it clear he was going to accelerate the plans in Project 2025 during the transition, and along with so many organizations that are supporting our civil servants, yesterday, Democracy Forward was able to announce that the outgoing head of the Office of Personnel Management, which is the office that is in charge of the federal workforce – he left, of course, at the end of his term, at the end of the Biden administration, and at 12:01 came into Democracy Forward in order to be able to lead our effort Civil Service Strong to ensure that our civil servants are getting the support they need in this time of chaos and confusion.
And, really, that’s not just about our civil servants. It’s about all of the American people, because you don’t want somebody that is deciding or helping implement drug safety or medication safety or food safety policies and procedures that’s just there because they happen to be loyal to somebody on a social media platform. That’s not how the government functions, and over 90% of the American people believe that people in the government should be promoted on their merit and not on their loyalty. So so that’s one of the things that’s standing out in these executive orders for me, Paul.
And then, of course, a lot of efforts to really obscure the separation of Church and State, to weaponize both our own government against people and to weaponize religion and faith-based communities against people. And I know that you all at Interfaith Alliance are going to be great partners on that in the days ahead.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
Let’s talk about faith for a second, because I know what a faithful person you are. And we’ve talked about our religious values and and how that intersects with our public service; and the threat of how faith is being weaponized, and specifically the rhetoric around faith in this moment. I mean one of the standout things about the inauguration was Franklin Graham’s prayer, in which he basically said, God, you know, and God created Trump, essentially. And God, you know, God brought you here and God’s going to use you and basically you are anointed by God. These are these are pretty audacious claims.
And then you have, interestingly, you have this incredibly powerful and viral video of Bishop Budde, who just very simply spoke to the president, kind of person to person, and said, please, you know, she was talking about unity and the issues of unity. And she said, please have mercy. You know, have mercy on the people, on LGBT youth who might be scared, have mercy. And all of this, and I just think you saw in such strong relief the difference between how traditions can use their teachings. I just am curious how you’re seeing all of this play out, both for you personally, as someone who’s really committed to your tradition, but how does it function in our body politic?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Well, I think that’s a great example, the two different prayers within a short time of each other, of, really, the diversity in America – not just between religious traditions or spiritual traditions or those that choose to opt out of traditions and have secular traditions, but also even within our religious traditions. And of course, we know this well, because I’m a Baptist, and there’s a lot of diversity within Baptist tradition. You have people, really, on the very far right, and you have really progressive folks. And I think the beauty of this country is that it is to be a country where everyone gets to have this intimate sphere of their life and their personal commitments, and where we don’t seek to elevate one commitment over another; where the law is unable to do that, at least how it’s intended to be in our constitution.
And I think one of the real concerns that we’ve seen – that’s not just a concern about Inauguration Day, this has been going on for multi-decades now – is a real attempt to elevate certain religious traditions, or even certain religious rhetoric or religious perspectives or political perspectives that are dressed in religion, over the freedom and the existence and the vibrancy of all people in this country.
And so, you’ve talked a lot about that, right now people are calling it a kind of Christian Nationalist movement; at times it’s been called other things, but I think that we are going to continue to see that play out. And it’s really up to all people that love this country – but I think all people, especially those of us who come from faith traditions, to speak out that it’s one thing to have a faith tradition, and it is another thing to weaponize the federal government or the state government in the name of that tradition. And when we start hearing rhetoric like that or seeing policies like that – many of which we had to challenge in the prior Trump administration, we successfully challenged them – we are really at a pivotal moment.
For me personally, of course, my tradition and the work that I do to stay grounded is really about community and connection. And we talk a lot about that, Paul. It’s why I so admire the work that Interfaith Alliance has done, the community it has been for me just as a person, and then the community that it serves and seeks to be for so many people who may feel alone. And in this moment people always want to talk to me about the legal tools and the strategy tools and like, yes, go look at the tracker and get educated and speak out. But what we know about these eras, and we are in one, is that the primary tool that anti-democratic actors, that these extreme actors, radicalized actors seek to utilize is isolation, and is depriving people of hope.
And so part of our work now is to come together, to create some community. Going across the street or the apartment complex or down the way to a coffee shop with a neighbor, or walking someone around the block, or helping someone out of a car – that is actually not now just a personal choice that people are making, but it is a broader principle choice to come together and to be together at a time where there are forces trying to move us apart. And so that’s actually, for me personally, how I look at the traditions that I’m grateful to be from and the traditions I’m grateful to share with others, is how can we all come together as a community? That is going to be, actually, what will get us through this. And we’ll make sure that you have some good lawyers and some good resources to help you navigate it. But it’s really going to be that coming together.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
You know, I just love the way you said that. And of course, you and I have talked about, just, my family relationship with Brandeis and the tool of the law, and how important that is and how important Brandeis viewed facts in the work, and knowing all of this. But one of the other people who you, early on in our conversations – because you, I think you might have studied philosophy in college…
SKYE PERRYMAN:
I did. Yeah.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
Okay. So you’re a philosophy nerd. And one of the people that we admired in common was another relative of mine, a cousin, Richard Rorty. And there was an interesting approach to social hope. He didn’t go to religion. He was interested in religion, but he wasn’t – he was interested in kind of what brought people together and what kinds of mechanism. I wonder, are you thinking at all about Rorty these days?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
I think his book is – I’m not going to turn around because I’ve got to run in a second – but you’ll see there’s a lot of these books on my shelf. And he and Brandeis have a fair amount of them on both the shelves at our home and the shelves at the office. But yes, I think that one of the things that he talked about and really called us to, and I’m trying to get around to writing on it and you and I need to write on it together, but is really understanding our history. And this country has been in places like this before. That’s one of the reasons I thought it was poignant to have the inauguration on Dr. King’s day.
But he goes even further, to the beginning of the 1900s. And this country has had these times before. And it pushed through and was able to get to a better tomorrow because of the work. I mean, it’s work. Because of the work of people seeking to do real things, not just performative things, and seeking to come together in new ways, against all odds. And this isn’t the first time that we’ve had a Supreme Court that was reversing the rights of people. It’s not the first time that we’ve had massive wealth inequality. It’s not the first time that we’ve had – for good reason, a lot of people have low trust in our institutions.
It’s not the first time that we’ve had massive White supremacy or other types of, you know, violent, even racism and and other types of violent behaviors and movements. And yet, this country has been able to pull through, and not just because of some arc that exists that you’re just sliding along, but because of the real work of people. And I think Rorty’s work, I think Brandeis’ work, and then of course, I think Dr. King and all the civil rights leaders’ work really show us that in a lot of ways.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
Just, you know, in Achieving Our Country, which was such an important book for both of us, he lifts up my grandparents about their work on unemployment compensation. And just the last couple days, actually, during the inauguration, I was doing this in-depth editing of my chapter on what they did on unemployment compensation, which was work that was so tedious and so, like, making the sausage and making things work. But they did the work. They had a huge community of people doing it with them, and on the other end of it – this was all in the context of the Great Depression, and yet at the end of it, they had created something that millions, millions of people’s lives have been made better because of it.
And this chapter was so hard and dense and tedious. And yet I was actually happier than I think most of my friends, because that’s what I was looking at is like recognizing, oh, okay, people have been doing hard work.
SKYE PERRYMAN:
And without fanfare, hard work, without fanfare because it was the right thing to do, while also having to raise your family and figure out how you’re getting your laundry done and the whole thing. So I think that’s right. I think that’s right. So that’s the hope.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
Let me ask one final thing. If you had one piece of advice to our listeners about getting through in this moment, what is your one piece of advice?
SKYE PERRYMAN:
I do think there’s no way out of this but through it. And so my advice is the community and connection. We’re going to get through it together. When you see someone seeking to tear you apart, to try to sow division, to try to make you feel like you’re the only one or that your belief in justice and your belief in a better tomorrow is somehow naive or somehow radical or somehow audacious, you can ignore that. And I think that we can get through it together, and to remember our history and how many people have done hard work against great odds at great risks to themselves in order to create a future that we have inherited, and that it’s really our job, now, to be good stewards of that.
PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:
Skye Perryman is the very effective CEO of Democracy Forward, using legal action and advocacy to hold government and powerful interests accountable, protecting democracy and advancing policies that serve the public good.
Skye, thank you so much.
SKYE PERRYMAN:
Thank you, Paul. And thank you to Interfaith Alliance.
