May 3, 2025 – Faith is Standing Strong: Rev. Dr. Shannon Fleck

 

REV. PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Rev. Dr. Shannon Fleck is an Oklahoma native and ordained minister with a passion for social justice and interfaith relations. She recently took the role of executive director at Faithful America, the largest online community of Christians advocating for social justice. With a Doctorate of Ministry degree from Candler School of Theology at Emory University and a Master of Divinity degree from Phillips Theological Seminary, Shannon was a longtime leader of the Oklahoma Faith Network, where she was instrumental in initiatives like no Hate in the Heartland and promoting inclusion and combating Christian nationalism in Oklahoma. And now she’s here on the State of Belief.

Rev. Dr. Shannon Fleck, welcome to our program!

 

REV. DR. SHANNON FLECK, GUEST:

Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

We are so glad to have you and congratulations on your new position. This is really, really exciting. Okay, let me, before we dive into everything about your new role and all of that, I’m asking guests the honest question of how are you doing? Because I think it’s one of those loaded questions, but we have to ask it because we can’t just barrel ahead thinking everybody’s hunky-dory in this time. So how are you doing?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

You know, right after the election I went into a period of despondency, and it was rough for about a month. And I came out of that with a sense of drive; and I can’t describe where it came from except from my reference, which is God in my point of view; but I just knew, okay, here we go. That staying silent is not going to be an option. Moving forward is the only way to do this. You’ve been doing this for so long. Keep going.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, I love that. I love that, because I feel like a lot of us went through that journey – and some of us are still in various points of that journey. And no shame at all, but I do think it’s been, for me, just coming alive to this moment and recognizing what’s at stake; but also recognizing I was made for this moment, and if I don’t respond to it then shame on me. And so I think it’s great that you feel that you were made for this moment, and I’m getting that vibe from you.

Maybe you can take us back. You’re from Oklahoma. Now, that is an amazing state that has all kinds of stuff going on at the same time. Tell us about your background. How did you grow up? What role did faith play in your own background?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

I was raised in a small town in Oklahoma, about 30 miles north of Oklahoma City, raised by a single mom who was a public educator, and so that’s instilled in my heart and soul and spirit. I would run around, as a little girl, her school, after school, and just play in all the classrooms, and had a wonderful childhood; very, just, protected, safe, small town. And I went to undergrad 15 minutes away. So I did not go far for undergrad. But when I came back from getting my bachelor’s degree, my very first job out of undergrad was doing juvenile probation work for the state of Oklahoma.

Now, what was wild about that is that I was 22 years old. I had lived in this small town bubble. I had never seen abuse or pain or addiction or any of the things that I was about to see in and out every single day. And that job changed everything about how I approached life, because I knew I wanted to serve and I loved people, but I never knew what that would look like. And that job honed me in on, okay, there is radical pain in this world, and I need to spend my life doing something to address it.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Were you already raised in the Church and feeling some sort of call in that direction, even as you were doing that first job?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

You know it’s only in reflecting back, but yes, I was raised in my home congregation. It’s a Disciples of Christ congregation. My mom took us every Sunday, and I look back and remember a youth group mission trip to St Louis, Missouri. I remember laying in the grass outside after a worship service we did on our mission trip as a group, and feeling a call to ministry. But I was like 13 years old and I had never seen a female in that role and I didn’t know what in the world that was about. So I dismissed it, and only found it again later when I was in seminary really dissecting my history.

So it was there. I didn’t want to accept it because I didn’t know how to implement such a thing when you’ve never seen it in front of you.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

That’s really fascinating, and what I’m connecting is this kind of sense of ministry, sense of calling, and then encountering pain and seeing like, oh, okay, there is deep pain in the world. No one’s doing this to themselves. This is being done to them, and they’re trapped in some kind of system that is creating pain and suffering and oppression. And so I do think that there’s an interesting throughline for many people who have gone and felt a call to ministry, and then encountered really radical oppression and said, oh, I have to process this into what I think is ministry and what I think is actually the Christian call.

And I’m kind of channeling what happened to Walter Rauschenbusch when he went to Hell’s Kitchen to kind of save souls, and then all of a sudden saw these people attacked by a system that was creating poverty, and the death of young babies because they were poor, and he had to rethink everything. And then he went back to the Gospel. He was like, oh wow, there’s everything, it’s everywhere. And I didn’t see it because I didn’t have those eyes yet.

And so I can imagine that all of this is coming together. And so, after that job and you went to seminary and you were still discerning, like, what do I really want to do? You know, what do I really feel called to do? And like is it me? And I think, as a woman for you and as a gay man for me, it all felt like, very, this is like a crazy idea, but I’m still taking the next step. Tell us a little bit about how you went to seminary and then the continued growth.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

While I was still doing juvenile probation, I was also filling in as a youth minister at that same home church. They had lost their youth pastor, I was young and around, and they were like, okay…

 

 PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

…With many of those churches, it’s like, that’s all they’re looking for. You’re hired, you’re hired!

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Yeah, yeah, except I was never hired. I did it for free.  And here’s why: it was supposed to be temporary. It was supposed to be a stopgap while they found the new person; and two years later, I was still doing it, and still doing it for free. However, what I will say is that while I was doing that, my home congregation hired a female minister to be the associate.

And the woofs that happened that I didn’t even recognize, until she pulled me aside one day and said, hey, have you ever considered seminary?

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love that. And even just asking that question to anyone is so powerful. You know, I tell the story, the church I grew up in in the 70s – you know, I’m older than you – had a female associate pastor, and I just thought every church had women pastors. But I didn’t realize until later, the 70s was really early, that, you know, one of the first churches. But for me, it was my tradition from then on, and that’s how radical it is to have women. You know, the widening of the inclusion in the pulpit is that it becomes the tradition rather than the exception or something weird. It’s just what you grow up with and what you know and what you expect, almost, and so that’s great, and I love that she asked you the question.

You know, when I was at Princeton, I would just go up to people who were like economics majors or whatever, and I would just: “Have you ever considered seminary?” Just because no one else at the university was going to be asking that question, and so I would just ask it to everyone. And the amazing thing is, a lot of them would be like, oh, my God, I can’t believe you’re asking me that question – because it’s been in my mind and, just, I have nowhere to process this. And so you must’ve been like wow, okay, I wasn’t, until now. And now I’m maybe thinking about seminary.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Well, I mean, I laughed at her in her face – and I have since apologized for that, because I was like, you’re not serious. This is, uh, no. And so she had already done the pre-work, gotten me a whole packet too, so she had a packet for me when she posed the question.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

That’s pastoral work. I’m not only going to ask the question, I’m going to keep pushing you a little bit. Like, you know, here’s the next step. Here’s the next step. That’s great.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

And I still consider her a friend and mentor today, where we still have that relationship. But she planted a seed within me that, I think, hit something that was already inside of me. And it blossomed, and then I started seminary; and even while I was in seminary, I didn’t necessarily see myself in parish ministry. But I continued on, because what I was learning was just incredible. I was soaking up seminary like a sponge. There was so much information, and I often say I deconstructed with Bible scholars, because I feel like that’s the experience of seminary.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It’s so exciting. I mean, the three years of seminary were the most important in my life. I mean, I have kids now, so I don’t compare it to that, but it totally changed the way I view the world and how I understood myself in the world. And it’s not only the Bible, but it’s the people around you who forced me to deconstruct myself and say, what do I really believe in? And and how have I been operating in the world?

And you know, being at Union with James Cone, and Raphael Warnock was there when I was there, so you’re getting all of these amazing kind of testimonies – and then you’re offering yours. So it’s all things going all the way.

So eventually, you got your degree. When did you get ordained? And then, you didn’t do the thing that I think is tempting to do and say, okay, I’m going to go to a really kind of hip church in New York or wherever, or Atlanta, or whatever – you were in Oklahoma. You did your ministry in Oklahoma, which I think is amazing.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Yes, I graduated in 2011. Wow, yeah, 2011. And was ordained, literally, the day after graduation because I had family from all over the country that was in town, so we were just doing it. And no, I didn’t pursue anything trendy or hip.

I actually got married two months after that to a man that’s active duty Air Force. And so I spent a few years with him in Texas where I did adult mental health work. I spent about two years in Little Rock, Arkansas, where I actually worked for the chapel on the Air Force base there as a contractor, so I didn’t really get to do anything ministerial. It was very administrative, but it was a job in a church, right. I was finally using my education.

And then we came back to Oklahoma after the birth of our daughter, because my family was here; and I got a job at a church in Enid, Oklahoma, where we were living, and did that for two years. And confirmed, I think, that that probably was not the route for me. And at the conclusion of my marriage, the job was kind of winding down into a place where I was discerning, oh, this is not… And then this job down in the big city of Oklahoma City was hiring a director of programs, and that was called the Oklahoma Conference of Churches. And so I jumped in on a new type of ministry.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Isn’t that amazing? And this is so important. These organizations can make a huge difference in a community. They can help people show up, they can help people get organized, they mobilize people. They have a moral power to speak out. This all is stepping stones on all the stuff that’s leading you up to Faithful America.

So you eventually became kind of a statewide leader in Oklahoma, talking about religion and public life. Tell us about that position.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Oh man, what a journey. What an absolute journey. That organization I inherited was very much based on the National Council of Churches model, very membership-, denominational-, ecumenical-based, and it was struggling. It was struggling to maintain that model, just as we all know the churches are struggling – and it’s that state level where they really feel that pinch the most. And so we had to figure out something different, and so I started on a journey of just leaning into the things that a lot of people were not saying. And that became popular and unpopular at the same time.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

What were some of those things? Let’s name them, because those are often the issues that traditional ecumenical groups – we’re not going to talk about this, we’re not going to talk about this, we’re not going to talk about this, because those things will drive us apart. But then you end up being completely hamstringed about what you do talk about. So what were the things that you wanted to talk about in Oklahoma, and what year was this?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Well, I was named executive director in 2018, and within months of me being named the executive director, an entire denomination left our organization. They left it very publicly and out loud, put it on the front page, and it was a very bold statement against hiring me, because I was seen as someone who was too political. The same denomination would go on to push St Isidore. Same denomination. And  that was crushing as a brand new executive director. I was super young, and that was hard.

And the next time I caused a kerfuffle was our state House of Representatives was not letting our local imam offer the prayer on the House floor. He had been nominated to do so through all the correct processes, and they refused to let him do that. And one of the first acts I did as executive director was organize a response around the chaplaincy program at our House and how discriminatory it is, how they were continuing to make new rules about praying and who can pray and who cannot.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Unbelievable.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

That was 2018. That was right out of the gate. Probably how I got the reputation of being political, I don’t know. And so then, in 2020, I launched a campaign called No Hate In the Heartland. I shouldn’t say I, we did. The board was on board with it, the staff, and it was beautiful.

We launched a theological statement about anti-racism and anti-discrimination and put out an anti-discrimination policy, which was a first for a religious organization in the state of Oklahoma. That act cost me more members to walk away, because if we were going to do an anti-discrimination statement, I wasn’t going to leave anybody out. That wasn’t going to happen. We were going to name every member of society that is discriminated against and cast aside, especially in the name of faith – because what I was seeing happening was all of this religious discrimination, but I didn’t have a name for it. I didn’t have a term for what was going on. I just knew it was amplifying and getting worse and we needed to meet that moment.

It wasn’t until January 6 that I had that moment of, okay, this is a lot scarier and bigger. And then, in the state of Oklahoma, they started upping the ante and we see a young man by the name of Ryan Walters come on to the scene.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

So let’s talk about Oklahoma. You know, I used to say Texas and Florida were really vying for the title of the most kind of Christian Nationalists or White Christian Nationalists of them all, but I think Oklahoma is kind of coming up from behind and, really, passing. So let’s talk about Ryan Walters and the wonderful effort, the grift of the Trump Bible, among so many other things. But I think the reason it’s so important to talk about this is that a lot of things that are going to impact the national conversation are happening in Oklahoma. So talk to me a little bit about the lay of the land, including the lawsuit, which is very, very dangerous. And we have an amicus brief on that, and I want to talk more about it. But talk to me about what’s going on in Oklahoma.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Oh my gosh, Oklahoma. I love Oklahoma; I love the people here. That’s the reason I’m here. But, my God, we have experienced a takeover in a way that you can look back and see very plainly that is in alignment with everything that’s happening now on the national stage.

We used to have Democratic governors. We used to have Democratic reps and senators. It was a pretty bipartisan legislature that got things done. And when our last Democratic governor, Brad Henry, left office in 2011, we were 17th in public ed rankings in the country – and that was a push up. We went up to 17 from like 23 or 32 within his time as governor. So here we are in 2025 and we’re 49th – shocked if we aren’t going to hit 50th – and that’s a quick drop.

And that happened because the House races the Senate races were so gerrymandered and changed. Election laws were changed to make it harder to vote. We see this SAVE Act going through Congress right now. We need to be paying very close attention to that. That is not “safe”. That is fully sinister and something to watch. Things like that have been happening in Oklahoma that has now created this massive Republican supermajority that is so scared of voting against this agenda that they will not act. There are plenty of Republicans in Oklahoma that I visit with that I have talked to who say, “I cannot impeach Ryan Walters because I will not get re-elected.” And that’s the state of things.

The Christian Nationalists from all over are funding elections here. Wisconsin Supreme Court, you just saw that. Oklahoma had the same Supreme Court race in our elections last year that they were interfering in and changing, because our Supreme Court said “no” to St Isidore. So that made them quite upset.

So Mr. Ryan Walters comes onto the scene overseeing a nonprofit called EKCO: “Every Kid Counts in Oklahoma” is the name of this nonprofit. And his job is to oversee GEER funds from the epidemic, or the pandemic, rather; and ends up misappropriating millions. Millions of dollars are misappropriated during his time there. So it makes sense, then, that our governor, Governor Stitt, would elevate him to Secretary of Education in 2022.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

So shocking. So shocking. And, of course, because of the ranking, the incredibly low ranking of Oklahoma schools, he’s immediately going to get to work on?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

 

 putting Bibles everywhere he possibly can. Bible, Bible, Bible.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

The Trump Bible, no less. I don’t know if that’s gone through, but that was the big grift. Bibles, but not only Bibles: what was it, prayer, or was it a certain kind of curriculum that was being put into the schools?

Again, what’s really important is that both you and I are ministers. We’re not anti-religion and we’re not anti-religion in school. People can pray in school, that’s totally their business, and you can learn about religion in school. Like, “They took religion out of school, they took God out.” That’s not what we’re talking… We’re talking about coercion: coercion of students to believe something particular, which is the most anti-American thing I can think of. So, anyway, sorry, a little rant there, but talk about priorities!

 

SHANNON FLECK:

I know, and right now the curriculum that you’re speaking of is in our legislature. So we had people from Heritage Foundation, Dennis Prager, we had all kinds of people come together to write our social studies curriculum standards. This happened in the summer last year that I got wind of this. How that normally is supposed to go is educators come together to write the curriculum and make recommendations. Educators, Ryan Walters himself, was on this very committee in 2019. He knows how this goes. Yet he brought this cabal of folks together and wrote standards that are atrocious. Reading them is sickening at the level of Christian indoctrination and, quite frankly, theological lies. It was clearly not written by anyone that has theological awareness. It’s atrocious.

So right now, there’s a lot of movement trying to get our Oklahoma legislature to vote on it, because last year they didn’t vote on anything related to Ryan Walters and it just flew through. So we’re trying to demand: vote on it, and vote “no.” Do both of those things.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, yeah, you can do that. You know, you mentioned earlier that you have a lot of acquaintances who are Republicans who say, “I can’t do that because I’ll lose my office.” Lose your office! It’s fine, who cares! I’m sorry, I just am not in the business of caring If you’re not able to stand up for your values. What are you doing as a public servant? And we hear this about in the House on the Hill in DC: “Oh, I can’t, because I’ll lose my job.” It’s like, then, lose it! All you have to lose is your integrity.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

That to me is a big cost. Like, that’s not worth it.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you sell your soul for another two years of a job that, to me, seems absolutely hellish.

You know, it’s so important the kind of activism and mobilization that you’ve done on the ground, and I’m sure you worked to some extent with Interfaith Alliance of Oklahoma. The important thing is that there are voices to be lifted up from all different faith traditions who don’t agree with what’s happening. These folks don’t actually have the mandate they think they have.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

That’s it. That’s it! They think they have it all, and they do not.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And they do not. So that’s the reason that everybody listening, hopefully, will understand, that they assume they have your consent unless you tell them they don’t. And I think that’s so important. And I think of the great moment when Al Green, Rep. Al Green, stood up and said, “You don’t have a mandate. You don’t have a mandate!” Because he knew he was representing his constituencies that were going to be so hurt when Medicaid gets gutted. So he was like, “You don’t have a a mandate!” And my thought was, every Republican should have been saying that because they don’t have a mandate: they won a slim victory, and yet they’re acting as if they wield a dictator’s scepter.

So, anyway, what is Faithful America, and what is the mission? And why does that job excite you now?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Oh my gosh, I’m so excited for just the mere opportunity of this, just to get in a little bit of trouble, good trouble; maybe throw some tables over…

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

We’re recording this before Holy Week in the Christian calendar. That’s what Jesus did, in case people are not familiar with the story.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

That’s right. You know, Faithful America is a large online body, an online collective. It was birthed out of the National Council of Churches, I think in 2004. And then Jen Butler, lovely Jen Butler, took it under her wing at Faith and Public Life. And then it launched into its own thing after that. So it’s had a few homes and a lot of love to get where it is now. And what I really foresee my role, coming in, is to do a lot of what I did in Oklahoma: gather people and mobilize them, and I know that that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. That has to happen with all of our organizations, because in Oklahoma, we did that with Interfaith Alliance Tulsa, Metropolitan Ministries, Respect Diversity Foundation, CAIR Oklahoma. We were a group, and because we were a group we were united in message and moving the ball.

I really want to be able to do that with you and all of these organizations that are already doing sensational work around this issue and really mobilize and move people. And sitting here, from my seat here in Oklahoma City, I have all the positivity in the world that we can do this. Because if people in Oklahoma are waking up and seeing it, then it’s go time.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Right. And I think people have heard me talking about the courage that faith folks are showing right now. If you think about Bishop Budde, if you think about the Catholic bishops, if you think about the Lutheran Services – no one folded. They didn’t say, “Oh, you’re right, I’m sorry, we’re doing bad things.” They said, “No, this is who we are. You’re coming for us? No, we’re going to come for you.”

 

SHANNON FLECK:

And the Quakers. The Quakers!

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Of course, the Quakers! But then they were joined by the Sikh Coalition and the Cooperative Baptists. The Cooperative Baptists, who have never done anything like this – yeah, they joined in. And so, I think, wider and wider and wider. And if you think about the Christian community broadly, I think many, many Christians, who might view themselves as conservative in many areas, are recognizing, well, yeah, but we gave to World Vision for years, to help people not be hungry around the world or to stop AIDS and in different areas, and you’re cutting all of that. You just cut us off completely, a broad selection of the Christian community; and say, what are we going to do to ensure that our ability to express our religion is not being attacked again and again and again by the Trump-Musk-Vance administration?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Right. We’re definitely keeping an eye on this office of anti-Christian bias that Trump has launched with Paula White. Definitely got my eye on that, because that’s going to become a different sort of entity.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, it’s very interesting. The moment they launched that,  I’m sure you, and certainly I, was like hey, listen, the threat is coming from inside the house. The most anti-Christian administration we’ve had in recent years. You’ve attacked everybody. So what are you talking about?

Ironically, even under DEI there was a Christian affinity group in the State Department that had to disband because it was under the DEI mantle. This idea of diversity, it includes everybody. And you know, this is another example of – just like the privileging of a certain kind of Christianity, it’s not about Christianity, let’s just be clear. It’s about a certain kind of Christianity that agrees exactly with their agenda on every point. And so it’s entirely a political effort.

So what would you say, are the three priorities of kind of policy or things that Faithful America is really going to be concentrating on in the coming months?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

We definitely want to make sure that faith is standing strong in spaces where people are being ostracized: so that means making sure that we have a coordinated presence, at least visibly, at Pride celebrations, and figuring out partnerships so that we can help plug people of faith into roles to help with security or whatever is needed. We have a lot of conversations internally about the immigration crisis and the detention centers, specifically: what is it going to look like if the Insurrection Act is enacted? Those are conversations that need to be proactively had with those that are going to be affected, which inevitably is going to be us all.

But not being scared of that, and understanding what it means to be a person of faith under circumstances like this is really important. We want to blow the highlight horn – and I just saw the amicus brief yesterday on St Isidore, but we, especially with me coming into this role, I’m trying to get the word out that this is scary, scary. This is a life-defining decision.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Tell the people listening what this is that you’re referencing.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Yes, so I’m talking about St Isidore. St Isidore Academy is a Catholic school, and it applied in 2023 to become a virtual charter school in the state of Oklahoma. This was done with the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, the Diocese of Tulsa, and the Catholic Conference of Oklahoma. In Oklahoma, charter schools, even virtual charter schools, are considered public schools. Herein lies the issue.

So we have the Catholic Church coming in, making a proposal to start a charter school board, knowing full well that that is a public school that receives public dollars. It was done with the exact intention of ending up where it’s going, which is to the United States Supreme Court. It was developed and launched that way, and so in March of 2023, I submitted written opposition to the committee, and in April 2023, I was one of six who made verbal comment at this tiny little virtual school board meeting. But every public comment was in opposition of this entity. It was across the board opposition. They made the decision not to pursue it but to send it to the Oklahoma Supreme Court to decide.

So the Oklahoma Supreme Court last year, in 2024, decides the case seven to one against it, saying this is unconstitutional. I watched the arguments, and it’s clearly they’re using the Free Exercise Clause – and I’ve been hearing this a lot from politicians – they’re using the Free Exercise Clause to argue against the Establishment Clause, making a claim that the Establishment Clause is preventing free exercise, as if they are two separate things rather than a check and balance on each other in and of itself. That’s the nature of their argument, and they lost pretty big, 7-1, in Oklahoma.

So lots of us were like, thank God! Good job, yay, Oklahoma. Christian Nationalists come after our judges that, of course, were up – and one of them actually did not get reelected because of it. And then we hear the news at the beginning of this year that the United States Supreme Court is going to hear this case, and the shock of that is wild that they would even take it. So what we have is the Supreme Court is hearing arguments for St Isidore Academy to essentially obliterate the Establishment Clause.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

You know, at this point I completely have lost faith in the Supreme Court and I don’t know exactly what it will mean; but all we can do is try, at this point, to persuade a couple of the members who normally would automatically side with this idea of the Christian Nationalist playbook being entered into the Constitution, which we’re supposed to guard against it. So, you know, here’s hoping. But at stake is, really, public schools, in some ways. I mean, the end game is to destroy public schools and take away funding from public schools.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

And look at how Oklahoma has done that, because that’s exactly how it’s going to unfold.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, and again, way to go Oklahoma with your 49th ranking. Just a plummet. It’s so interesting, because that’s not a long time ago that Oklahoma was at 23. You have to really work to lose that much traction.

I’m also really interested in this moment for LGBTQ equality and faith, because I do think there’s there is, among some, a backsliding of support. When you spend close to whatever, $300 million, against trans people, people are going to start having other ideas about trans. And then they have people who are there. I don’t know if this has happened in Oklahoma, but there’s about 10 states where people have introduced anti-gay marriage bills. And you know, they’re fringe, still, but but this is how it starts.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

You know that’s so important is the fringe, that fringe idea becoming mainstream, because that’s exactly what has happened. So when we look at these fringe characters, we are no longer in the privileged position of brushing that off as fringe because the highway has been paved for them.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

At the same time, we recognize that the fringe is almost no longer the fringe. It’s also so important for us to remember that we are in the majority, yes, that we not act like that we are some sort of small resistance effort. We’re not. We’re actually representing the majority of traditions in America who really do want pluralism, who really do want equality for everyone, who are not looking to take rights away from LGBTQ people, even are not looking to strip women their right to make decisions about abortion or whatever they want to do with their bodies.

These are actually mainstream religious opinions, and we have to remind those of us who hold them that we are representing an important part of American democracy against what is a hostile takeover and an effort to impose one view on all of us, and I think that’s what is really important. And it’s also really important for you, as a Christian leading an organization that really is focused on Christian mobilization, to claim that tradition and to not be shy about it. I think that’s just hugely important.

I say all the time like, don’t pretend like you represent Christianity and I’m somehow an aberration. Actually, I represent a Christian tradition in America. That has been part of a great tradition in America. And if I’m going to be a little inflammatory, like the people who are the Christian Nationalists now are the heirs of every mistake that has ever been made on behalf of Christianity in American society. They are the heirs of the pro-slavery movement. They are the heirs of the anti-civil rights movement. They are the heirs of the anti-women movement. They are the heirs of the anti-immigration movement. That’s what they represent, and now they’re in, hopefully, the height of their power and hopefully it will only go down from here. But it will only happen if you are successful, if Interfaith Alliance is successful, if we’re all successful together.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Yeah, it’s going to take all of us. It will take all of us, but the good news is there’s way more of us, and I think that’s why they latch on to power and control so decidingly is because they know. They know that this is not the number one most popular thing, and people are running from this tradition as quickly as humanly possible. Look at the generation…

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

They’re fleeing Christianity because of these people! Because of these people. Many of the young people say it’s because of the LGBT stance. I’m just like, please, you know, don’t listen to them. You can go to a church where you’ll hear the most pro-LGBT…

Anyway. So I want to get very tactical. How can people sign up for Faithful America sorry, yeah. How can people sign up for Faithful America Action Alerts and to get more information? Where do they go?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Go to our website. It’s faithfulamerica.org. What you will see is newsletters. You’ll get petitions that we do, and drives, and you’ll hear more from me in the coming months, because now that everyone knows that I’m here, I intend to do some talking. I had to be quiet until it got announced, and that was really tough for me to just be like, arggh.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, we look forward to hearing your voice now.

You know, I like to start the show with how you’re doing. The one thing I want to end the show with, with every guest, is: what’s one effective action that anyone can take right now to save our democracy and to promote a pluralistic, welcoming, multi-faith, multi-racial nation that we all are dedicated to? So, Rev. Dr. Shannon Fleck, what is one thing that our listeners can do that you would recommend in this time to really be helpful to our democracy?

 

SHANNON FLECK:

So, this is going to be weird maybe, but a few weeks ago – I have some older neighbors and they were gathered at our mailbox having a conversation, and I needed to go out and get my mail. And rather than duck into my house and hide because I don’t want to have dialogue with people, I was like, you know what, I’m going to go out there. And so I did.

I went out to my mailbox where I then engaged in a half-hour conversation with these two older gentlemen who are my neighbors, and got to have a conversation about, hey, I live here by myself with my daughter and I’m anxious and I’m nervous and I’ve got a lot going on that makes me scared right now. And their response was so neighborly, and it reminded me why I love Oklahoma, because they were very affirming: we will watch, we will make sure things are okay. You can come here.  Here’s my phone number. Please have my phone number. Please. This is my name.

And it might sound weird, but honestly, knowing the people in our proximity is one of the things that is going to really move the needle – because if they know me and they know Shannon, their neighbor, they don’t necessarily know Shannon the religious leader who says all these things. They just know me. And if something happens, they know my soul and my spirit as their neighbor, and not how I am defined by whoever deems to have an opinion. And there’s something really wholesome about that. And it is really hard to discriminate and hate and judge and ostracize when you know people.

 

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love that. I think that that is so… Know your neighbor. There’s love your neighbor, but also just start with knowing your neighbor, and that’s beautiful.

Rev. Dr. Shannon Fleck is the brand new executive director at Faithful America, the largest online community of Christians advocating for social justice. Sign up for important action alerts and updates at faithfulamerica.org.

Shannon, it has been such a pleasure having you on The State of Belief. Thank you for being with us.

 

SHANNON FLECK:

Thank you.